Message #274
Date: Jul 29 1999 22:48:50 EDT
Hi everyone,
Here is
another topic for discussion. First, I must inform you that having been
a teacher and
having
done considerable writing, I have become obsessed with the manner in which
we use
words.
Too long a teacher! The item that is currently bugging me is the way we
use the
expression,
"temari balls." It is a redundancy. According to the information I have
available,
some translated
from the Japanese language by a Japanese individual, the Japanese
word,
"mari,"
means "ball." The first two letters of temari, "te," mean "hand". So, the
English
translation
of temari is handball. When we say, "temari ball," we are saying the equivalent
of
"handball
ball." That is, of course, a redundancy.
Gen
Message #275
Date: Jul 29 1999 23:19:40 EDT
Funny you
should bring this up.... I was thinking along these lines a
bit ago
and asked Sue about it - mostly about the plural use of
Temaris...
here is her reply (I was saving it to incorporate into the
web site
in the near future)...
"Regarding
the "plural" of Temari - I can't say I really know. I have
heard
it both ways (temari and temaries), but since "temari" is really
an adjective
("to wind by hand") usually one has the qualifier following
the word
"temari" - as in "temari ball" / "temari balls".
Capitalization
is a "western" concept, so I do not believe it is always
used when
referencing Temari/temari.
Sue also
mentioned that she would check with her husband when he
returned
fromhis latest business trip.
I think
that most of us have gotten our words from the few
American/English
books that have been written... even what is
available
from the other American web sites tends to say the same thing.
I had
a suspiscion that it wasn't quite as accurate as we Westerners
would
like to believe - from the little I'd been able to glean from
other
sources. Given Sue's expereince in Tokyo (and Sarah, you may be
able to
jump in on this) - I'm leaning in her direction for correct
wording.
I admit that part of what promted my curiosity is that I
collected
more than a few choice comments and stares if I said I was
going
to work on my balls (sorry Eric), play with my balls, make my
balls....
etc. so I had taken to saying Temaris instead - but the good
old preserve
the correctness and tradition Ginny wondered if I was
entitled
to call them Temaris.
Message #280
Date:
Jul 30 1999 05:06:24 EDT
I was given
to understand by both the Temari Sensei (teacher) and my
Japanese
teacher (sensei) that the word temari was an adjective and
meant
" wound by hand", te meaning hand and mari, to wind. Therefore in
my book
it is perfectly acceptable to say temari ball. However, we shall
need expert
advice on this and we'll have to await the return of
Hayashi-san
for final arbitration. I've just checked in the little
dictionary
I have for the translation of the word ball and it says
"boru",
but I suspect that there will be many other Japanese words to
cover
the same word, depending on what sort of ball it is. Not an easy
language,
Japanese, and hardly surprising when they have 3 different
alphabets
and countless (excuse the pun) ways of counting, depending on
what it
is that you are enumerating. I used to get my revenge on my
Japanese
teacher by making her say English tongue-twisters. The best
was "Red
lorry, yellow lorry" Was I mean or what!!
Judy -
judging by the current topics of discussion on the RCTN, it
sounds
as though it should be re-named Reproduction, Creches, Teats &
Nappies.
Message #286
Date:
Jul 30 1999 09:51:11 EDT
I know what you mean about the funny looks, my husband had a field day
with the
'squashy ball' discussion.....
Message #288
Subject:
Balls, by any other name...
Ok!
Ok! As the sole male member (pardon the pun) of this group I feel
that I
am duty bound to add my part into this "balls" discussion.
Ginny,
if you think you cause stares and curiosity when you speak of
working
on, wrapping or even just admiring "your balls" you can imagine the
looks
I can get. A most notable example was when a friend and I were in
a
fabric
store. She had earlier discovered in the back corner of the store
a
stash
of unique embroidery supplies and was most eager to show them to me.
Later
that day she took me there in triumph. In her excitement she loudly
announced
as we headed past a long line of customers and cashiers "I saw
these
colors and immediately thought of your balls!" I'm sure all the
blood
drained from my face only to rush back 10 fold in a matter of
seconds.
There could not have been a brighter shade of crimson. It was
all highly
embarrassing and extremely funny.
I decided
almost immediately after that incident that I needed to consider
a different
way of referring to my beloved craft and now pretty much refer
to "working
on, wrapping or even just admiring my temari". This decision
was not
based on any consideration as to whether "temari balls" was
redundant
but rather out of a desire not to be permanently banded from all
polite
society. Respectability was at stake, after all.
Well, to
finish the story after the incident mentioned above my exuberant
friend
pondered my circumstance of the proper terminology of a craft in the
light
social mores. We were both very much aware that the majority of
temari
craftspersons were women. In fact, until one of the discussion
group
recently mentioned that they had a man in one of their classes I had
never
been aware of another man taking up the interest. (Oh, the trials
of
being
a pioneer.) Anyway, she found great satisfaction in the thought of
a
craft
which gave so many women balls. She thought it had a great
"yin-yang"
concept to it, an aspect wasted on me since there was no such
balanced
achieved. "Coals to Newcastle", as it were, to use an English
expression.
Well, the solution came to her when she was reading an old
gothic
novel. In one part there was an accounting of a seduction in which
the hero
inadvertently sees his lady-love naked. The passage continues to
describe
the hero's thought as he gazed amazingly upon her "beauteous
orbs".
Well, I'm sure you see the result from this point. My friend has
insisted
ever since that I should refer to my temari as "beauteous orbs" so
that I
can best take advantage of the crafts yin-yang appeal.
So ladies,
you now have a choice. If you would rather refer to your orbs
instead
of your balls, please feel free to adopt this terminology but be
aware
that as far as my friend is concerned you are sacrificing a great
cosmic
balance.
Message #296
Date:
Jul 30 1999 22:23:59 EDT
Subject:
balls, orbs, temari
Oh, wow!
I'm not sure I can stop laughing over your delightful story, Eric.
But I
will try for the sake of all, and get through this missive.
Just so you know, there are many male temari instructors in Japan.
One of
the schools in Kyoto and down in Kyushu, I believe have
numerous
male temari craftsmen... so you are not alone!
Now, on to the business at hand. As I had written to Ginny, and
as Sarah
mentioned, we had learned that the word "temari" meant to
wind by
hand. It is true that the individual words of "te" and "mari"
mean "hand"
and "ball" respectively. As Sarah also mentioned, there
are, however,
numerous words for "ball" in Japanese.
I believe the "baru" (ball) that Sarah mentioned comes from the
corrupted
Japanese-English, as is "besu baru" (baseball).
Among the other varieties of "ball" in Japanese include "tama",
"cue"
and "mari".
"Tama" means a solid ball, like in a cue ball, or a ball made of
jade.
A sphere with a hard shell, like a light bulb, or egg (tamago).
"Cue" is used more in context with globe, or spherical shape
"Mari" on the other hand, means a play ball, a bouncing ball, a
ball made
of soft squishy materials.
All too often, when translating from one language to another,
there
is just not a one to one equivalent in meaning. Often, there
will be
a single word in one language that will take many words to
describe
in the other language, and still may not come close to the
meaning
of the word in the first language.
In this case, I believe that both the "to wind by hand" and "hand
ball"
of the temari definition are an attempt to describe the same
thing.
(recall the origins of "goten-mari" - "palace ball") With
that in
mind, and centuries past, the literal meaning "hand ball"
leaves
the original common toy definition, and takes on a connotation
of decorated
ball, or one "wound by hand".
This does not address the original question, which is "should one
use the
word 'ball' following the word temari". One then needs to
look at
our own English usage when referring to "ball". As Eric so
kindly
provided us, there are many descriptions for a spherical
object
- orb, globe, sphere...
What about the double definitions of "baseball", "basketball" or
"football",
does this mean the game, or the object used to play the
game?
If one plays baseball, then one uses a baseball ball... Yes,
we drop
the second ball, because it is just too awkward. (let us not
forget
that "football" in the US vs. that in the rest of the world is
an entirely
different game, using an entirely different ball!)
I believe temari, or temari ball has developed it's own style in
it's English
usage. Most westerners do not know what temari is, so we
change
the word temari from a noun to an adjective and add the
qualifier
"ball" in an effort to describe it in more familiar terms.
I recall
one member of our chat group mentioning having done temari
eggs...
those are certainly NOT balls as we know them, yet they are no
less temari.
So to address the "original" question, no, we do not need to add
an additional
"ball" after the word temari, however, just be prepared
for a
long drawn-out description when you receive a "funny look" from
the unenlightened.
: )
Message #299
Date:
Jul 30 1999 23:03:52 EDT
Subject:
Re: Balls, by any other name...
I guess
part of me wants to say "What a choice" as I sit here hardly
able to
type for the tears rolling down my face... you guys gotta stop
this -
I hurt from laughing!
Message #301
Date:
Jul 30 1999 23:32:50 EDT
My Mother instead
of saying balls when she wanted to use the expression in a
derogatory way
used the term SPHERICAL OBJECTS. which could easily be
referred to
temari but, I might add, not half as funny as some of the
letters I've
just been reading. Balls by any other name etc, etc,
If it makes
you laugh it can't be bad........................love Sylvia
Message #312
Date:
Aug 01 1999 10:00:00 EDT
Subject:
What are you people like?
Greetings,
you bunch of reprobates,
I approached
my computer cautiously yesterday feeling very fragile
indeed,
having been up all night Friday at an excellent party with a
crowd
of local musicians entertaining us with some very good blues, jazz
and plenty
of soul, all washed down with copious amounts of local vino
collapso,
and I find myself swamped with more mirth and hilarity than I
could
handle. So I went to bed early with a couple of pain killers and
feel rather
more like a human being today, and capable of joining in
the affray.
By the way, one of the guitarists was my one time one and
only male
class member, and he is talking about coming back to join us
again.
Trouble
is where do I start?.....
Eric -
Thankyou, somebody had to start the ball rolling, so to speak,
and
I loved your story. However "balls" is so much easier to say that
beauteous
orbs or spherical objects, especially when you drop a half
wound
one and it goes three miles down the road! The Japanese/English
lesson,
Sue, was very well done. Thank you. As for the rest of the
"English"
lessons, I'll throw in one final tale, which concerns
pronounciation
rather than meaning of words.. We have English friends
living
in Auckland, who we visited during our holiday in New Zealand..
Out the
back of their house was a wooden deck which the husband, a DIY
fan, had
recently extended. They were delighted to point out that the
locals
pronounce this not as "deck" but as "dick" and we were proudly
shown
Dave's dick extension!
Enough
of this! Back to the matter in hand, balls, that is, and the
next question
is how big or how small? Oh dear! I think this is
getting
out of hand. Eric, you're excused this one! The wedding
ball
that I
am still struggling with for my niece is the largest I've ever
done and
it is 42cm circumference. Having failed every maths "O" levels
5 times
with a worse grade each time, please don't ask me to translate
that to
inches and diameters. The smallest I've made are earrings.
4
pairs
to date. 3 using little styro cores finishing up at 7 or 8 cm
circ.
The smallest I made had half a tissue as core and then a thread
wrap and
that worked out at 6 cm circ. Using normal pins was decidedly
awkward
and I found that those little sequin pins are ideal. I used 6
strand
embroidery floss to decorate with, usually in single or double
strands
and some very fine metallics. They are wonderful earrings to
wear,
being so light and you can make them to match any colour scheme.
I am intrigued
by the idea of a really, really large one. I'd love to
see the
three foot one! I quite fancy the idea of making a huge one,
but I
shall have to ponder this awhile! This all comes back to Cathy's
big ball,
and I have to agree that I think you've over-wrapped it
somewhat.
I don't think I have ever put more that half an inch of
wrapping,
being yarn and thread, on any ball. As long as the ball is
wrapped
evenly and you have sufficient covering to stitch into, save
yourself
the arm ache of over-wrapping.
Message #314
Date:
Aug 01 1999 17:06:05 EDT
Subject:
Reprobate??? Not me!!!
Hi all...
(all of those concerned in ballsing-up the Kiwi accent, that
is!!!)
First
of all, having the only natural-born Kiwi accent in the group may I
just say
that we do NOT say *dick* for *deck*. It's all in the
perception
- and those Pommy ears!!! (tongue firmly in cheek here!)
On
the other
hand, I am married to a *Richard* - he's a *Dick*. (HA!!! Beat
that one!)
Had a
letter from my sister last night. She actually wrote something,
not a
whole bunch of jokes. While that's amazing, she floored me
when
she wrote
*How's the handwork going on your balls?* I don't think I'll
touch
that one with a 10-foot barge pole.
Message #315
Date:
Aug 01 1999 17:53:55 EDT
Subject:
On the other hand!
This is for Gen...
I feel
bad enough to write to you and apologise if we have upset you in
any way
(that is to say, those of us who precipitated and prolonged the
wise-cracking)
when you asked a legitimate question about the use of the
word *ball*.
We grabbed it and ran with it. I have to admit it was a
lot of
fun, though, so I hope you don't look on the rest of us as a bunch
of no-hopers.
I am sure this isn't the end of it - who knows where our
discussions
will lead, and how one will perceive our various
interpretations
of the English language based on our country of birth.
Message #316
Date: Aug 01 1999 19:48:32 EDT
Subject:
More about Temari developments
I've been
reading the archives. I giggle, laugh till I'm out of breath,
snicker,
smile and love every second of it. All of you nice,
real-honest-to-goodness
temari-creators, thank you!
Gen
Message #318
Date:
Aug 01 1999 22:33:20 EDT
I don't know which I've enjoyed more - the balls or the phrases!
Keep it up!
Love, Mary
Message #320
Date:
Aug 02 1999 00:37:26 EDT
Subject:
Ginny Re: On the other hand!
I'm not
letting Judy take the blame on this one - up until i started the
whole
bit about playing with my balls everyone was nice and proper...
but I
run the list so - :>)
Quite
seriously if we have offended anyone please accept our
apologies...
but I so still have to admit it's some of the best laughs
I'e had
in years.
Message #322
Date:
Aug 02 1999 06:34:40 EDT
Subject:
Re: Mesasage for Harriet + language.
Morning all
judging by the
amount of banter about 'balls' everyone must have had a good
belly laugh
over the weekend - my family have been looking at my balls in
crafters showcase
and I've had a lot of stick about them!
On the subject
of language - we have a tv programme here in the uk. called
'A way with
words' - it's takes lots of words and sayings and traces the
history about
them - you'd be amazed at some of the crazy origins of the
English language!
One word that
'you' americans use is 'fanny' - now here in the uk that lifts
a few eyebrows
in certain company!
Back to balls
and can anyone let me see a pic of the 'Merry -go -round'
design - Sarah
has wetted my appetite with a description and I've had a go
at it but not
sure if it's right or not - looks good anyway but I'd want to
call it 'Harlequin'
Message #324
Date:
Aug 02 1999 07:02:37 EDT
Subject:
Balls
Where will
this all end, I ask myself. Judy you said you were married
to a Dick
and "beat that" Well I'm married to a Peter and I know what
that means
in American. In English it is slang for a safe. I prefer to
think
of Peter as my Rock.
My rock
has recently taken up golf along with the husband of one of my
temari
ladies, at a beautiful little 9 hole course up in the
mountains..
Neither Gay (and don't you all start on that!) or I have
any desire
to play golf, so whilst our men are out playing with their
little
balls, we sit and enjoy the spectacular views and play with our
big ones!
It's actually about the only opportunity in the week that I
have to
sit down and spend some serious time stitching.
Message #340
Date:
Aug 02 1999 23:50:27 EDT
Subject:
From JUDY: *Peter*ing out!
Much and
all as it pains me, I have to admit ignorance of the *American*
meaning of the
word *Peter*. Do tell!!! I know all about *peter-out*
and I could
easily come up with a new twist on the meaning of that phrase
(ahem!!!) but
for the sake of decorum, I won't.
On the other
hand, if it's what I think it is, then back home we called it
*Percy* (forgive
me Eric!!!) as in pointing Percy at the porcelain. Am I
on the right
track? When my brother was small it was always called *Fred*.
(No, it's not
the reason I called my cat *Fred* - although my brother figures
into the reason
I did.)
My Kiwi ex-boss's
son, who was 4 years old at the time when this happend,
loved to play
games with me on the computer. He would stand on the chair
behind me with
his arms around my neck and tell me *Judy I love you. You're
my bestest friend*.
One day, without missing a beat, he got down off the
chair and started
scratching *it*. I asked him if he needed to go to the
loo, but he
said no he didn't. He thought about it a little, stopped
scratching,
then said very seriously *You know, Judy, peckers are for peeing
not for playing*.
O-kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!! I went into the office and
practically
rolled on the floor I laughed so hard.
So, did I get it right, or not?
Message #342
Date:
Aug 03 1999 01:01:29 EDT
Subject:
Re: From JUDY: *Peter*ing out!
One might
say that you hit the nail on the head.... :>)
At least
your four year old has is unscathed - the son of a dear friend
of mine
was potty training (had trouble aiming to begin with) - and the
seat came
down... dead on. Took years for Nancy to get him near a toilet
again...
and then only after her hubby took the seat off (she was the
only woman
in the house so didn't have a lot of clout). No harm done but
to this
day he doesn't shoot straight....
Message #344
Date:
Aug 03 1999 03:32:46 EDT
Subject:
From JUDY: I concede!
Now, Sarah...
I have to tell you right here and now that I LIKE the name
*Gay*, so I
won't take that one on. It is a happy name, makes me think
of
yellow flowers
or yellow floral patterned curtains blowing in a breeze at a
window.
Those are bright and cheerful too. I hope your friend Gay is
a
happy, cheerful
person. It's too bad that it has other meanings too,
although as
far as I'm concerned, *live and let live*. Some of my best
friends in the
past, i.e. in NZ, were/are gay - they were happy, cheerful
people, as well
as being thoughtful, generous, and extremely courteous too.
In particular
I think of my dance partner for roller figure skating - he was
the absolute
best. So, whether it's a person's name or it's their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*persuasion*,
that's fine by me.
Are you out of
bed yet, Sarah? It's after 10 a.m. in Cyprus, so I imagine
you are.
Even without having heard from Sarah yet, I CONCEDE! Shout
it
from the rooftops,
from the highest hill. I cannot repeat my reaction
to your *peter*
message. That one beats mine by a whole *length*!
I just
can't wait to
see what Sarah will come up with.
So, whistling as I slink off into the sunset...
Two little *dick*ie birds sitting in a tree,
Message #346
Date:
Aug 03 1999 06:53:59 EDT
Subject:
Re: From JUDY: *Peter*ing out!
Hello All
I'm going to
have to sneak in on this 'toilet' talk - I have a friend whose
little boy calls
his 'Peter' - and I'm so sorry Eric -ERIC! This term I do
believe is used
when he is excited about something!!!!!! Relating all this
to original
subject matter i.e. Temari - my husband and I (I sound like the
Queen!) sat
on the sofa this morning like a right couple of 'ERICS' - I
really can not
apologise enough Eric - as we opened my parcel from Ginny -
the GITS had
arrived! (Of course GIT here in the UK is not very nice!) I
have sent a
personal message to Ginny of course but suffice to say her
temari gift
to me was WONDERFUL and there is rather a spooky tale attached
to our particular
swap!! Have any of you read 'The Celestine prophecy'?
Message #347
Date:
Aug 03 1999 07:01:28 EDT
Subject:
Re: From JUDY: *Peter*ing out!
CORRECT!!!!! Don't
you feel sorry for all the Percy's, Fred's, Dick's and
Peter's. So many of
them, and we only have to feel sorry for girls called Fanny
or Gay!
Message #348
Date:
Aug 03 1999 07:38:50 EDT
Subject:
Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Percys....
Ginny -
That poor child! Fancy going through life with a fob about
toilet
seats! It doesn't bear thinking about. Mind you I think most
S
E Asians
are thus inflicted. The ladies seem to be incapable of using a
western
style or seated toilet. The Asian ones are all squat loos and
it is
commonplace in Singapore to find foot prints on the seat in the
Ladies!
But as for that poor little boy not being to aim straight,
that's
perfectly normal, isn't it? Sorry Eric, but........
Message #350
Date:
Aug 03 1999 09:32:47 EDT
Subject:
the culti p...
Ok everyone,
I just have to add my 2 cents into this chatter of non-temari...
My rather formidable Japanese father-in-law has been in business
for himself
for some time now. For a while, he was marketing some
unique
products between the US and Japanese markets.
One item in particular was a jewel cleaner. The battery-run,
hand-held
device had a distinct resemblance to something between and
electric
toothbrush, and something that a lady may use for excitement
in the
privacy of her boudoir! My father-in-law felt that the name of
the item
should be the "Culti-pecker" named after "Culti" - his
company
name, and "pecker" for the pecking action of the little brush
at the
end.
Now, I ask you,... just how do you go about telling your
father-in-law
that this is not exactly the terminology he should be
using
for his product?
It has been nearly 20 years since the "Culti-pecker" made the
scene
but our family still gets a good chuckle over it!
The Japanese are notorious for using English words in creative
ways on
their products. Things such as:
"Creap" - a coffee creamer (creamy powder)
"Pokkari Sweat" - a sports health drink
"Kurapu" - a cracker
Another chuckle often seen in Japan, is the word "barber" on the
front
of a barber shop. During the war, foreign barbers would print
the word
"barber" on the door of their shop. But since the doors are
narrow,
they would print half the word on one door and the other half
on the
other , making it "bar ber". The Japanese thought that this
was the
way the word was spelled, so even to this day, you will see on
the front
of Japanese barber shops, "BAR BER" boldly displayed.
Message #352
Date:
Aug 03 1999 10:21:02 EDT
Subject:
Re: From JUDY: *Peter*ing out!
I sat here quietly throughout
these *Peter* discussions for as long as I
could....I can't
help myself - I knew a man
named Dick Hand ( really ), and a girl named Candy
Cherry
( no, she wasn't a stripper,
she was a 3rd grader ).....
Message #368
Date:
Aug 03 1999 23:24:03 EDT
Subject:
Re: Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Percys....
Actually
- you don't have to feel too sorry for my friend's son... Nancy
taught
him how to assist himself in aiming and he grew up doing much
better
than his older brother... and Jon is now in his twenties,
graduated
college and living quite happily with a girlfriend in Atlanta,
Georgia.
As he grew up he did not remember his traumatic experience
thankfully....
with much
chagrin though I have to admit that it was always good for a
chuckle
for many years.
Little
did I know six short weeks ago what I was cutting loose on this
unsuspecting
world... to think that we sit here tossing these stories
around
barely knowing each other from all parts of the world - then
again
some have been pretty quiet so if we have put anyone off I do
apologize...
and now that we've had a good time I do respectfully
request
that we get the list back on topic... remember these archives
are publically
viewable and I wouldn' want our reputations tarnished
anymore
than they already are (!) Anyone wishing to continue on the
chuckle
line can set up a multiaddressed email off line...
Thanks for the chuckles and also for your cooperation...